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	<title>Comments on: All About Infinities</title>
	<atom:link href="http://prasantgopal.com/blog/?feed=rss2&#038;p=486" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://prasantgopal.com/blog/?p=486</link>
	<description>Quantum takes of a Classical World</description>
	<pubDate>Tue, 07 Sep 2010 01:30:21 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Prasant</title>
		<link>http://prasantgopal.com/blog/?p=486&#038;cpage=1#comment-758</link>
		<dc:creator>Prasant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jun 2009 12:10:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prasantgopal.com/blog/?p=486#comment-758</guid>
		<description>I tried to have the option for deletion, but couldn't manage :(</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I tried to have the option for deletion, but couldn&#8217;t manage :(</p>
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		<title>By: some SmartArse</title>
		<link>http://prasantgopal.com/blog/?p=486&#038;cpage=1#comment-751</link>
		<dc:creator>some SmartArse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Jun 2009 06:41:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prasantgopal.com/blog/?p=486#comment-751</guid>
		<description>@ WontSayMyname

That's the beauty of anonymous commenting ;) It enables you to be as politically incorrect as you like to be.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ WontSayMyname</p>
<p>That&#8217;s the beauty of anonymous commenting ;) It enables you to be as politically incorrect as you like to be.</p>
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		<title>By: WontSayMyName</title>
		<link>http://prasantgopal.com/blog/?p=486&#038;cpage=1#comment-750</link>
		<dc:creator>WontSayMyName</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Jun 2009 06:27:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prasantgopal.com/blog/?p=486#comment-750</guid>
		<description>@ some SmartArse : ROFL...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ some SmartArse : ROFL&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: some SmartArse</title>
		<link>http://prasantgopal.com/blog/?p=486&#038;cpage=1#comment-748</link>
		<dc:creator>some SmartArse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Jun 2009 20:58:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prasantgopal.com/blog/?p=486#comment-748</guid>
		<description>oops! I realise that the example given by me is not sufficient. My apologies for going overboard. Anyway the person who asked that question is anonymous, so no harm. 
@ Author:
Man why din't you provide for a way of deleting the comments ?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>oops! I realise that the example given by me is not sufficient. My apologies for going overboard. Anyway the person who asked that question is anonymous, so no harm.<br />
@ Author:<br />
Man why din&#8217;t you provide for a way of deleting the comments ?</p>
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		<title>By: some SmartArse</title>
		<link>http://prasantgopal.com/blog/?p=486&#038;cpage=1#comment-747</link>
		<dc:creator>some SmartArse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Jun 2009 20:36:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prasantgopal.com/blog/?p=486#comment-747</guid>
		<description>Seems IIITians are too preoccupied by "research" to remember some high school math and common sense. lol</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Seems IIITians are too preoccupied by &#8220;research&#8221; to remember some high school math and common sense. lol</p>
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		<title>By: some SmartArse</title>
		<link>http://prasantgopal.com/blog/?p=486&#038;cpage=1#comment-746</link>
		<dc:creator>some SmartArse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Jun 2009 20:29:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prasantgopal.com/blog/?p=486#comment-746</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Then every curve is a polynomial over (x1, x2, x3,…….. xn)&lt;/i&gt;

FYI, finite degree polynomials represent a very limited set of curves. Even a curve as simple as a sine or cosine or exponential requires an infinite degree (Taylor's expansion) polynomial.

&lt;i&gt; okie can you construct infinity larger than set of all possible curves in a plane or space ? &lt;/i&gt;

Absolutely bullshit question to have been asked by someone at IIIT. Its somewhat like asking whether 99999999999999 is the largest integer. You can always construct a bigger set. For a trivial example let 'B' be a set which has a lone 'piece of shit' as its member and call the set of all curves as 'A'. Then the cardinality of 'A U B' is obviously greater than cardinality of A.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Then every curve is a polynomial over (x1, x2, x3,…….. xn)</i></p>
<p>FYI, finite degree polynomials represent a very limited set of curves. Even a curve as simple as a sine or cosine or exponential requires an infinite degree (Taylor&#8217;s expansion) polynomial.</p>
<p><i> okie can you construct infinity larger than set of all possible curves in a plane or space ? </i></p>
<p>Absolutely bullshit question to have been asked by someone at IIIT. Its somewhat like asking whether 99999999999999 is the largest integer. You can always construct a bigger set. For a trivial example let &#8216;B&#8217; be a set which has a lone &#8216;piece of shit&#8217; as its member and call the set of all curves as &#8216;A&#8217;. Then the cardinality of &#8216;A U B&#8217; is obviously greater than cardinality of A.</p>
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		<title>By: Shubham</title>
		<link>http://prasantgopal.com/blog/?p=486&#038;cpage=1#comment-741</link>
		<dc:creator>Shubham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jun 2009 22:10:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prasantgopal.com/blog/?p=486#comment-741</guid>
		<description>@srijan -- "All the paradox matererial comes here." Could you please elaborate? [Its not quite clear]

And If I am not wrong the example given earlier explains the existence of such type of sets -- "if we take the complementary set that contains all non-squares, that set is itself not a square and so should be one of its own members. It is 'abnormal' "

@Author -- Realy an eye opener. Nice!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@srijan &#8212; &#8220;All the paradox matererial comes here.&#8221; Could you please elaborate? [Its not quite clear]</p>
<p>And If I am not wrong the example given earlier explains the existence of such type of sets &#8212; &#8220;if we take the complementary set that contains all non-squares, that set is itself not a square and so should be one of its own members. It is &#8216;abnormal&#8217; &#8221;</p>
<p>@Author &#8212; Realy an eye opener. Nice!</p>
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		<title>By: STUFF!! and perhaps some meaningful stuff on set theory. &#171; Thoughts Unleashed&#8230;.</title>
		<link>http://prasantgopal.com/blog/?p=486&#038;cpage=1#comment-740</link>
		<dc:creator>STUFF!! and perhaps some meaningful stuff on set theory. &#171; Thoughts Unleashed&#8230;.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jun 2009 16:30:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prasantgopal.com/blog/?p=486#comment-740</guid>
		<description>[...] http://prasantgopal.com/blog/?p=486 [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] <a href="http://prasantgopal.com/blog/?p=486" rel="nofollow">http://prasantgopal.com/blog/?p=486</a> [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Srijan - Devil's advocate</title>
		<link>http://prasantgopal.com/blog/?p=486&#038;cpage=1#comment-739</link>
		<dc:creator>Srijan - Devil's advocate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jun 2009 16:02:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prasantgopal.com/blog/?p=486#comment-739</guid>
		<description>Nice post. Atlast found something to think upon.

I think...

We have got a paradox here. This means something must have been wrong/inconsistent somewhere before . I am considereing the paradox as a contradiction. And the fact that abnormal set is a set at the first place as the hypothesis. An abnormal set has itself in it, how can we accept that to be a set so straightaway. Afterall, a set is a collection of well defined objects. A question which should be asked is "If a set has itself in it, then is it a set?" or "Is the set as an element of itself a well defined object?". So, an abnormal set might not be a set!

Now, consider the paradox to be contradiction. Then the hypothesis that Abnormal set is a set wrong. That is to say abnormal set is not a set!

So, this paradax was actually the proof of "Abnormal set not being a set". 

A Corollary would be, For a set to be a set it must not contain itself.

Maybe such kind of "not set" sets could be called pseudo-sets in future.

Here is a formal proof for the theorem, "A set cannot contain itself."


Hypothesis: let a set contain itself and still be called a set. (i.e. Abnormal sets are sets)

Then, All the paradox matererial comes here. 

Since we get a contradiction (the paradox), the hypothesis is false.

Therefore, a set can't contain itself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice post. Atlast found something to think upon.</p>
<p>I think&#8230;</p>
<p>We have got a paradox here. This means something must have been wrong/inconsistent somewhere before . I am considereing the paradox as a contradiction. And the fact that abnormal set is a set at the first place as the hypothesis. An abnormal set has itself in it, how can we accept that to be a set so straightaway. Afterall, a set is a collection of well defined objects. A question which should be asked is &#8220;If a set has itself in it, then is it a set?&#8221; or &#8220;Is the set as an element of itself a well defined object?&#8221;. So, an abnormal set might not be a set!</p>
<p>Now, consider the paradox to be contradiction. Then the hypothesis that Abnormal set is a set wrong. That is to say abnormal set is not a set!</p>
<p>So, this paradax was actually the proof of &#8220;Abnormal set not being a set&#8221;. </p>
<p>A Corollary would be, For a set to be a set it must not contain itself.</p>
<p>Maybe such kind of &#8220;not set&#8221; sets could be called pseudo-sets in future.</p>
<p>Here is a formal proof for the theorem, &#8220;A set cannot contain itself.&#8221;</p>
<p>Hypothesis: let a set contain itself and still be called a set. (i.e. Abnormal sets are sets)</p>
<p>Then, All the paradox matererial comes here. </p>
<p>Since we get a contradiction (the paradox), the hypothesis is false.</p>
<p>Therefore, a set can&#8217;t contain itself.</p>
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		<title>By: ..</title>
		<link>http://prasantgopal.com/blog/?p=486&#038;cpage=1#comment-724</link>
		<dc:creator>..</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Jun 2009 11:31:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prasantgopal.com/blog/?p=486#comment-724</guid>
		<description>Let me put in a more familiar tone: Let S be the set of all possible power sets. Is PowersetOf(S) a member of S?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let me put in a more familiar tone: Let S be the set of all possible power sets. Is PowersetOf(S) a member of S?</p>
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		<title>By: Prasant</title>
		<link>http://prasantgopal.com/blog/?p=486&#038;cpage=1#comment-721</link>
		<dc:creator>Prasant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Jun 2009 06:21:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prasantgopal.com/blog/?p=486#comment-721</guid>
		<description>We are not worried about the members that are in the power set of A while non-existent in A. We are concerned about their respective cardinality.

   The members of power set of A and those in A are incomparable --  rather, they represent different things altogether. For instance, consider the following example to illustrate the difference between a set and a power set.  Let A represent the computers in a network. Say, each of them has a secret key to access something. Let P` be a collection subsets of A. I design a system as follows - Let x  be an element in P`; When all players in x use their secret keys together can open the secret. In a way, I can view P` as an Access Structure defining access to some secret. The elements in A and P` are incomparable in this current form. 

    Probably, your question might be motivated by looking at natural numbers and real numbers. Even here, there is not direct co-relation. For example, can we find an element in the power set of natural numbers missing from natural numbers? We can however attempt to seek an answer for the above question when we represent -- the power set natural numbers as a real numbers. So, representation is the key here.

  In general, I think it will not be fair to compare the elements of a set and its power set.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We are not worried about the members that are in the power set of A while non-existent in A. We are concerned about their respective cardinality.</p>
<p>   The members of power set of A and those in A are incomparable &#8212;  rather, they represent different things altogether. For instance, consider the following example to illustrate the difference between a set and a power set.  Let A represent the computers in a network. Say, each of them has a secret key to access something. Let P` be a collection subsets of A. I design a system as follows - Let x  be an element in P`; When all players in x use their secret keys together can open the secret. In a way, I can view P` as an Access Structure defining access to some secret. The elements in A and P` are incomparable in this current form. </p>
<p>    Probably, your question might be motivated by looking at natural numbers and real numbers. Even here, there is not direct co-relation. For example, can we find an element in the power set of natural numbers missing from natural numbers? We can however attempt to seek an answer for the above question when we represent &#8212; the power set natural numbers as a real numbers. So, representation is the key here.</p>
<p>  In general, I think it will not be fair to compare the elements of a set and its power set.</p>
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		<title>By: ..</title>
		<link>http://prasantgopal.com/blog/?p=486&#038;cpage=1#comment-719</link>
		<dc:creator>..</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 May 2009 18:00:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prasantgopal.com/blog/?p=486#comment-719</guid>
		<description>Let us call the powerset of all the curves to be PS, and PS1 be poweset of PS and PS2 be power set of PS1 and so on
How do you construct a member in PSi+1 not in PSi?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let us call the powerset of all the curves to be PS, and PS1 be poweset of PS and PS2 be power set of PS1 and so on<br />
How do you construct a member in PSi+1 not in PSi?</p>
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		<title>By: Prasant</title>
		<link>http://prasantgopal.com/blog/?p=486&#038;cpage=1#comment-715</link>
		<dc:creator>Prasant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 May 2009 05:24:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prasantgopal.com/blog/?p=486#comment-715</guid>
		<description>Indeed :-)  A power set of the curves in space is an obvious solution.

Another one would be, consider the space you are considering to be n-dimensional -- Then every curve is a polynomial over (x1, x2, x3,........ xn). Let the degree of the polynomial be m. So, every polynomial can be represented as a 2^m + 1 tuple with each number of the tuple indicating the coefficient in the binomial expansion.

    So, in a way any curve can be written as a real number with the understanding that -- a real number can be split into 2^y+1 parts and each part gives the coefficient in the binomial expansion. For making the real number unique, you may use a separator between. But, once you use a separator -- each one happens to be a collection of 2^y+1 reals.

 Hence, it is easy to see that the power-set of Real Number is of the order of these curves. Therefore, power set of power set of Reals is larger infinity than the set of curves in space.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Indeed :-)  A power set of the curves in space is an obvious solution.</p>
<p>Another one would be, consider the space you are considering to be n-dimensional &#8212; Then every curve is a polynomial over (x1, x2, x3,&#8230;&#8230;.. xn). Let the degree of the polynomial be m. So, every polynomial can be represented as a 2^m + 1 tuple with each number of the tuple indicating the coefficient in the binomial expansion.</p>
<p>    So, in a way any curve can be written as a real number with the understanding that &#8212; a real number can be split into 2^y+1 parts and each part gives the coefficient in the binomial expansion. For making the real number unique, you may use a separator between. But, once you use a separator &#8212; each one happens to be a collection of 2^y+1 reals.</p>
<p> Hence, it is easy to see that the power-set of Real Number is of the order of these curves. Therefore, power set of power set of Reals is larger infinity than the set of curves in space.</p>
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		<title>By: dd</title>
		<link>http://prasantgopal.com/blog/?p=486&#038;cpage=1#comment-714</link>
		<dc:creator>dd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 May 2009 14:38:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prasantgopal.com/blog/?p=486#comment-714</guid>
		<description>okie can you construct infinity larger than set of all possible curves in a plane or space ?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>okie can you construct infinity larger than set of all possible curves in a plane or space ?</p>
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		<title>By: Prasant</title>
		<link>http://prasantgopal.com/blog/?p=486&#038;cpage=1#comment-713</link>
		<dc:creator>Prasant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 May 2009 00:36:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prasantgopal.com/blog/?p=486#comment-713</guid>
		<description>YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT! 

You are due a treat from me :-)

The set of Integers/natural numbers is the smallest infinity and the set of reals is of the order of their power sets.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT! </p>
<p>You are due a treat from me :-)</p>
<p>The set of Integers/natural numbers is the smallest infinity and the set of reals is of the order of their power sets.</p>
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