This was originally written by Prof. Mitra and I am posting on his behalf. This was his reply to this exchange of mails.
Dear Prashant,
Thank you for your mail and the links to the blog comments. They truly
reflect perceptions of reality most of the time. However, though they
mostly consist of truths they are also mixed with some half truths and
untruths. For the last two categories, read incorrectness in facts or
unverified hearsay statements. I certainly do not insinuate any planned
disinformation.
There is also a strong element of interpretative ‘judgments on’ and
‘bashing of’ whoever is in charge. I will not attempt to elaborate further
on this to you. From the appended quote (Appendix I) from your own blog, I
know that you understand the genesis and effects of such ‘perceptions’. I
may also put here a link to this eye opening and brilliant piece from
Kalam: http://www.uttishthata.org/2007/07/06/a-letter-to-every-indian-apj/
I would only like to add that whether you agree with Marx or not, it is
difficult for any of us to ignore his famous poser: “The philosophers have
only interpreted the world in various ways - the point however is to
change it”. This of course holds true only when you are sensitive to the
fact that things are not perfect and feel that you can play a role to make
it better.
Blogs constitute a very effective means for airing views, opinions and
perceptions. But unless they are used ‘responsibly’ they may create havoc.
This naturally brings up the question of accountability. How do you bring
that about? ‘Authority bashing’ - the Faculty, the Parliament, the Campus
Life …- involves asking these ‘executive formations’ to be accountable.
However, especially when you do it through ‘blogs’, you run the risk of
falling into the trap of being irresponsible yourself. Particularly if and
when, in the process, you have taken yourself out of the ‘ecosystem’ and
have placed yourself in the position of a user and not in that of a
participant of the ecosystem.
Inevitably you also fall into the trap that you have landed yourself in,
in answering to Manan’s comment on your ‘Farewell speech posting’
(Appendix II). You talk about stereotypes of ‘roles’ (Student-TA,
Faculty-student, Parliament-student body, Saas-Bahu, Sauce-tamatar etc.
etc.:-). And consequently you end up using the argument: ‘in this role I
can be irresponsible’ but ‘how can you in your role?’
So how can we do things differently - and better? May be all of us can get
together and try to rewrite Kalam’s letter replacing the context of India
as a country with IIIT as an ecosystem consisting of student, staff, and
faculty - not to forget the alumni and the parents.
Best wishes and do keep running the blogs. The April posts are certainly
thought provoking, and many of them have been written very responsibly.
They can be even more effective with a little more of ‘accountability’
and, at least for some of the bloggers, a shift in their ‘roles’ - from
‘users’ to ‘participants’.
Abhijit
ps. Will you please post this reply in your blogs?
(Appendix I)
==============================
Quoted from “Recipe for MIT Part 6″ April 28, 2009 (PG’s blog)
After I sent the mail, Srinathan immediately calls me up and says, “Dear
Prasant: Let me tell you one thing. IIIT is nothing but what you are. IIIT
is a reflection of what you are. If you are positive, IIIT appears to be a
good place. In case, you are negative IIIT appears to be dooming. Its all
about your perceptions. Look at the brighter side - where else can you go
to the directors/deans - blast them and still come out smiling. Tell me
one thing - When you were doing various things in ToC and were rubbing
your whims on the students - did the system object? At IIIT, if you have
the conviction to do something everything is possible. IIIT can be only as
good as its students. Rather, IIIT is its students! There are limitations
and constraints for everyone -even the very best in the world have (had)
them. So, I suggest the following - Lets revoke the spirit of SToC which
was there last year and see what will happen. And as I have said in the
prequel - Can I tell him a NO?
===========================================================================
(Appendix II)
===========================================================================
# Manan Says:
May 2nd, 2009 at 9:56 pm
Very inspiring ….
I have a ques:
didn’t it ever occur to you that once you were among those students who
didn’t care about studies himself and even tried to copy once (or at least
you said so in your post), when you were being a strict TA to the juniors
(for their good of course…)??
# Prasant Says:
May 3rd, 2009 at 1:43 pm
Well, There are different roles that we play in our life. We take the
roles of a student, teacher, friend and (may be) a father/mother as well.
I would say each role is unique. As a student, I am allowed to make
mistakes, learn , may be copy. But as a teacher, I should take a higher
ground and look for what benefits the students, of course based on my
understanding.
Let me give an example: As a friend we can teach/talk several things to
our friends (includes several rubbish things) which cannot do when we, per
se, don the role of a dad(mom). So, each role has certain rules which we
would like to stick to. We should not mix the roles. In short, we should
know where to draw the line!
May 4th, 2009 at 1:42 pm
Dear sir,
I never said that I can be irresponsible as a student — All I said was that I can make mistakes and learn from my mistakes as it as part and parcel of student life. But, as teacher I have to think about various other things which are not bothering me as a student. Rather, I never meant/spread the word of being irresponsible throughout these writings.
May 4th, 2009 at 2:51 pm
For those wondering from where the post came from, kindly see
http://prasantgopal.com/parliament.txt
“However, especially when you do it through ‘blogs’, you run the risk of falling into the trap of being irresponsible yourself.”
Let me also add the following - Well, I think it is a risk which every editor/press/newspaper/news channel takes when they critically analyze any article (scheme) which the government undertakes. They risk being irresponsible vs the responsibility of looking with a critical eye.
“‘bashing of’ whoever is in charge.” — Well, again the point is I may be bashing, not-bashing and may be even avoiding a sugar coating of the entire story thereby making this a poorly presented case; but the fact is that the charges/challenges before us remain unanswered.
May 4th, 2009 at 3:12 pm
@prasant (comment #1 #2): well answered ..
Many of them still might be confused with the happenings .. In short, may be you can write an independent post on student bodies.
I think time has come to make the entire parliament system more formal, transparent, more pro-active, etc, etc. The current/past members have worked to the best of their abilities. I commend them for their efforts. But a lot of changes must be done to the current system.
May 4th, 2009 at 3:23 pm
Sir, if you agree that at least some of the things stated in the previous posts of this blog are true. Why don’t you act upon them and make IIIT a better place. And if you say some are half truths and lies you should point out which ones are and reveal the truth to us (facts not opinions). The topic of the post is not whether Prasant has disrupted the harmony in the Institute with his posts. He has pointed out some issues and if you have a good enough answer for them there should be not question for chaos or disruption. If things are not perfect what are you doing to make them perfect and what are the roles of the students in it. What is the plan you have forged for IIIT?
May 4th, 2009 at 7:00 pm
There are three things here:
1. Students observer some change sin the institute.
2. They attribute changes to some reasons.
3. They have difficulty in validating it with the institute people responsible.
Let us take Fees issue -
How many students (including Prasant!) went to Director and asked him about it.
What answers were got?
What solutions were discussed to reduce fees, if at all?
How much of this is documented?
How was this information sent to all students?
People keep harping about mess fees increase to guests - but it is for guests they disturb the calculation done by caterer, so if guests are willing to pay that - why are students worried?
May 4th, 2009 at 8:21 pm
“How many students (including Prasant!) went to Director and asked him about it.”
Most of the students ( who are aware of these issues ) are ignorant of the correct way to look for the answers. I mean most of us look for some defined way in which the faculty should be approached (which is right also) . Hundreds of students going to the director with the same problem is not reasonable also. Maybe most of the time students wait for some initiative to be taken by someone where these issues can be discussed among the students first. But this seldom happens and I think here the problem lies.
May 4th, 2009 at 8:30 pm
@T This is specific to the fees issue (I hate to discuss some of these things on public blogs, but since you asked, here’s my answer):
I do not think there is anything to be asked from the Director regarding the fee hike. The Director made his best effort to explain the situation at hand. He hinted at the impending hike. Knowing the Director personally, I can tell you that it is only with regret that fee is hiked. If I may further add, it was a decision taken when no other immediate alternate for raising funds is to be found.
As regards funding aspect at the Institute is concerned, I have documented exchanges with the Director regarding raising endowments - and endowment investments in the campus - and the earliest such exchange happened three years ago, and the latest one was through the Hostel Fee Review Committee report of which I was a member. It is clear that things did not turn out in our favor.
I do not know if you are aware of our efforts to raise consciousness amongst the students regarding the fee-hike and its effects - Vamshi Velagapuri was kind enough to start a website to spread the message:
http://web.iiit.ac.in/~vvelagapuri/
The above link has a link to a script of a play which is solely centered on Institute finances. The script was given to the Director who replied back to us saying that he liked the script, and the underlying sentiments. Further, we shall be meeting him as soon as he gets some free time, to have an elaborate discussion on the same. If there are any objections to the details of the script and the analysis in there (though I doubt if there could be any!), they shall be discussed and if need be debated in the meeting. Please note, that all of this is documented. And it is under circulation amongst the students - and there is a word of mouth publicity too given for the same.
Finally, regarding the mess fees - if some students harp on the increase for guests - that does not make it equivalent to students in general. Though I am surprised how this suddenly came into the picture.
I hope your questions are answered to reasonable satisfaction.
I hope that if there are pertinent questions raised by students, as long as they are answered to their reasonable satisfaction by the faculty - which is possible only by raising the levels of understanding of students and thereby bridging the gap between the thought processes - there won’t be any questions raised such as what Ravi raised.
May 4th, 2009 at 8:46 pm
Pranav -
Glad you put this response- I am not sure how many students are really aware of this. Many of them get carried away by word of mouth, etc.
About mess fees - it was in Prasant’s emails with parliament.
If things worked well in the context of fees - in terms of information dissemination, the same should be followed for other issues.
May be let all students come up with top list of issues and get clarity about them, from the institute.
May be Prasant can list them out and present it to the institute.
May 4th, 2009 at 10:04 pm
T: Let alone meeting the director on fee hike, I am still awaiting replies for several issues that I raised with the director personally and through mails since my third year - till date there was not a single reply from his side for the questions posed by me. Oops, there was one reply when I posted my query over Pranav’s login. My questions might be silly and may be not appropriately framed as well, but however when I send nearly 10-15 mails and I get back none - it hurts. I just hope may be, at least, in my next life I will be privileged to get a reply from Prof. Sangal.
Not only from Prof. Sangal, I still await replies from other professors as well. Let me also take to you the points which Rahul makes in the very first paragraph of this.
I can volunteer to present the issues, but will I get the replies? Given so far, the questions that I have raised very recently about the parliament are lying unattended.
In any case, I will submit a report to the Institute. I just wish that the students will also come out and pose their doubts/questions as well.
May 4th, 2009 at 10:40 pm
Prasant -
Somehow there is a definite disconnect. In FSIS, there is not too much student participation. They seem lost. The few students who come in may not have complete understanding of issues. More importantly, the students might want to have quick solutions.
Prof. Sangal says - there is a difference between ‘reaction’ and ‘response’. Reaction is quick take without understanding all aspects. Response is appropriate statement showing understanding of all issues related to the problem at hand.
So, in emails - many times reaction takes over response, and no Director would answer to reaction - which might flare-up the problem.
Hence it is extremely important to understand all the issues and send an email seeking a response - I am sure you will get a response to such emails. Only few people can respond to a reactionary email, many just react - causing even more problems.
No one - will respond to a reactionary post such as this (http://blog.rahul-sarika.in/?p=56#questionnaire).
May 5th, 2009 at 12:57 am
@T: I liked the explanation in your previous comment. But, how do we expect students to understand that without someone explaining it to them? If Prasant got a reply to the first mail that his claims were just reaction(s), Prasant would dig into the issue and he would have tried to get a better picture of the problem. Not responding to 15 queries deteriorates one’s faith in the system.
Everyone: When we are a part of the group that is being accused, we generally tend to take a defensive stand instead of examining the truth behind the claims. That results in a lot of useless exchange, wherein everyone spends a lot of time proving that he is correct. My point is that, if there is 5% truth in the accusations, why don’t we see it as 5% room for improvement(RFI) instead of arguing over 95%? Let us see this blog as a list of RFI(s). Let us channel our frustrations in a positive direction.
Many-a-times, we have observed that there is a lack of communication. Let us be transparent! If we consider “mess fees increase to guests”, we had a lucid explanation from T(5th comment). If students got a simple and lucid explanation like that when that change was made, there is little room for rumours and misunderstanding. Even after the explanation, if some students are not convinced, let us put in some more effort to explain it to them. Students are meant to ask questions. When the questions are answered to their satisfaction, it creates better understanding. Unanswered questions create unrest. Moreover, a transparent system increases trust.
I appreciate Prasant for putting in a lot of effort in his endeavour for a ‘better place’.
May 5th, 2009 at 3:40 am
@T I wonder how you reached this conclusion - “People keep harping about mess fees increase to guests - but it is for guests they disturb the calculation done by caterer, so if guests are willing to pay that - why are students worried?”
It looks like not only did you not attend the last session of FSIS (took place in January, 2009) but also got this information second hand - for the statement is not at all true.
During that FSIS, the points we students (I was there) raised and the answers we got from the Institute are as follows:
Q1) Can you please explain the rationale in increasing the mess fee for people who do not register in the mess?
A) The caterer complained of running out of food due to lack of estimation of the number of people who were expected to dine.
Q2) Did you know that the caterers use their common sense and business sense to make an estimate of the number of people who eat in the mess rather than the portal information?
A) No answer.
Q3) Did you also know that the caterer actively monitors the rate of depletion of food during breakfast, lunch and dinner, and prepares the required amount of extra food on the fly?
A) No answer.
Q4) Are you also aware of the fact that Yuktahaar mess, which let us say depends on the information provided by the mess portal, has run out of items to serve for breakfast umpteen number of times?
A) See? This is why we need a registration portal!
Q5) How is your answer remotely related to the question we posed?
A) What is the complaint register for?
Q6) We have made several complaints but no action was taken. Why?
A) You should ask the ‘MESS COMMITTEE’ regarding this. After all, that committee was elected by you people right?
Q7) Do you realize that increasing the prices of meals does NOT give an estimate of the number of extra people who plan to eat in the mess?
A) No answer.
Q8) Let us talk about the issue of 25 compulsory days. According to statistics provided by Dr. Rawat, 50%, 10%, 10% of students miss/skip breakfast, lunch and dinner respectively. So, if we take a student body of size 1000, the amount of extra money that the caterer makes comes to around Rs. 2.75 lakhs. Can we have a better policy where caterers make free money? (THIS QUESTION WAS RAISED IN ANOTHER FSIS ROUGHLY AN YEAR AGO)
A) See? The onus is therefore on the students to register in NBH mess and Yuktahaar mess so that the money is circulated within the college and not wasted on caterers.
-END-
Just look at the answer to Q8 - given by the Director himself. WE lost it COMPLETELY in that FSIS after this.
I have been here since 2004 and during this time, I noticed several non IIIT-Hians eating in the messes. Be that an MSIT student, a security guard working in a company next to IIIT-H, or a visiting friend/parent of a student, everyone paid equal fares to eat in all messes.
Do you expect us to believe that the Institute increased the prices for guests only because it did not want to cause injustice to students who registered?
Rather, it was a conspiracy devised by the Institute to force students to eat in the mess when it realized that some students were trying to decide on - what to eat, where to eat and when to eat - all by themselves. And why do I feel this way? The timing of the increase in the mess prices could not have been better. A survey was conducted
in our batch on Prof. PJN’s behalf. The questions asked were:
1) Did you register in the mess?
2) Did you pay the mess fee?
3) Given the option to take exemption from mess, would you go for it?
Majority of the students’ answers were ‘YES’ for questions (1) and (3). However, the fact that a there existed a small group of students (Including me) who did not register in the mess irritated the Institute.
Within 10 days of gathering the results of the survey, mind you TEN DAYS, there was a mail from the Institute
saying that all those who did not register in the mess (students and guests included) had to pay Rs. 20/- for breakfast and Rs.30/- for lunch and dinner irrespective of the mess they dined in.
Here is the proof for this. The survey was conducted from 8th to 14th of October, 2008. The following is the mail
we received from the Mess Committee on 25th of October, 2008.
—————————————————
from Mess Committee
to students@students.iiit.ac.in
cc life@students.iiit.ac.in
date Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 14:56
subject [Life] Reg: Previous Mail- FYI - unregistered students”
Sorry for the incomplete mail.
The rates are:
Breakfast: 20
Lunch: 30
Dinner: 30
1.) These will be applicable in all the messes ( even in Yuktahaar ).
2.) Applicable to all unregistered students/outside personnels/ parents
irrespective of any special cases.
3.) Those who want to register for the Nov month. to prevent paying the
above prices, please reply back to the mail or contact Mr. BLN (
caretaker).
For any complaints/suggestions reply to the mail.
—————————————————
Take another look at the answer given for the last question.
We students have pleaded the Institute to see the pointlessness in having a mess portal and other issues, and failed (for no reason except the headstrong attitude of the Institute) so many times that we have simply lost the energy and interest in carrying on the argument.
So much for the Institute claiming IIIT-H to be a family and all eh?
Dear T, I (and all students) would really appreciate it if you could make an attempt to answer all the questions mentioned above to which the Institute failed to an answer (including the meaningless answers to all the questions that were answered) and help us students understand the argument, if any, provided by the Institute and that is if and only if there is any logic in it. No obligations!
The mail that Prasant sent to the Institute yesterday was not of reactive nature in any sense. As Prasant mentioned, sending ten to fifteen mails and receiving no reply hurt him so much that he wanted to voice out his opinion by sending yesterday’s mail to a larger group. ONLY with the hope that the people responsible would reply at least for the sake of letting the college know that they do give a damn about the mails. As predicted, only a couple of professors have responded till now.
You mentioned - “Prof. Sangal says - there is a difference between ‘reaction’ and ‘response’. Reaction is quick take without understanding all aspects. Response is appropriate statement showing understanding of all issues related to the problem at hand.”
Prasant has been trying to get answers from the Institute for 2 years already. How much more time do you think he needs to spend waiting for a ‘response’? (@Prasant, you are right mate - response in the next life maybe!)
You say that the student turnout at FSIS is pretty low. I am sure you will come up with - ‘Students either watching movies, gossiping with friends, eating outside’ - as the reasons for that. But let me tell you that it is
the sheer dominance that the faculty shows in the FSIS that discourages students from attending FSIS. This is not just my opinion, rather the conclusion from an informal survey I conducted in my batch.
Can you give me one instance of an FSIS during which the points raised were resolved?
We really appreciate the faculty’s attempt to run the messes in a smooth fashion. From our side we pointed out in many occasions that there is a huge scope for improvement. Our questions however were simply shot down.
It is not just the dominating factor but also the ridiculing of students by faculty which we observed for the very first time during the FSIS I mentioned above.
And I repeat, “So much for the Institute claiming IIIT-H to be a family and all eh?”
“No one - will respond to a reactionary post such as this (http://blog.rahul-sarika.in/?p=56#questionnaire).”
I never asked for any response because I know for sure there will not be any. My part was to inform my fellow students about the happenings in our college because the Institute never bothers to tell us anyway. You say my perspective is flawed. But you do not say how.
Please allow me to repeat this one last time, “So much for the Institute claiming IIIT-H to be a family and all eh?”
May 5th, 2009 at 4:37 am
@Prashant Comment#9
In your original mail to the Parliament and to the Faculty, there were several questions or rather ‘accusations’ preceded by some judgments. I had taken them as a set of some very pertinent issues, rather provocatively raised, most of which I agreed with in my reply. In the same reply, I had also suggested how all of us could work towards making things better. However, from your Comment#9, it appears that you are expecting answers to those accusations, though I do not know from whom.
I mean what you have observed regarding the problems in the functioning of the parliament, is no different from what Chand has to say. Similarly you do not have any disagreement with what Chand says about the stellar roles played by several students in terms of improving things. This is quite clear from the exchanges at http://prasantgopal.com/parliament.txt
You also have received postings from others and except for Ravi, most have addressed to some of the issues. So is it that like Ravi, you too want answers from me? In that case the best would be to come across and have a chat with me. I will be very happy to share my experience and understanding, on some of the issues raised, with you and anyone else who is interested
May 5th, 2009 at 8:30 am
I read the document providing the script, but it still does not provides a solution.
No doubt we have a problem !! We have one of the largest CS department in India. To maintain and expand that, we need money, which we need to raise from our own. But is raising fee a solution?
Following are my arguments against raising fee as a solution:
————————————————–
- As you mentioned, by increasing fee by 10K for next 2 years all we gain is Rs 1.5 crores, which definitely falls short of the amount we need (Rs 60 crore+) for constructing an academic complex.
And let’s say even if we go for this raise, and grow, won’t we confront this problem in its bigger form in near future?
- Research requires good students, and when we raise fee beyond a limit we face the following issues:
1) Students would find it hard to afford a 5L loan.
Typically a loan which is paid in a period of 5 year needs more than 10L payment[1.13^5 * 5] (the actual amount would be even more). For all practical purposes an amount more than 16K pm is in no way less for a fresh undergrad.
For those who mention 7K, sorry your numbers are wrong, I am already paying 10.2K pm for a loan of principal amount 3.8L at 12% interest. Most banks allow a limited amount of 4L, and anything above this requires a security with an interest rate of 13%.
2) It would be extremely difficult for a student with this amount of loan to continue for a PhD/MS by research at IIIT.
————————————————————
What could be possible solutions:
1) Raising fee
Well we raise 1.5 crore from this option which is quite significant. But is that enough??
2) Government funding
Most universities in India and abroad depend on federal funding. CMU gets more than 60% funding from federal sources, MIT more than 50% and also Stanford. Note all three are private institutions.
3) Industrial funding
For all practical purposes we already have a quite a few industrial projects, there numbers could have been down this year, but I am not sure they can replace 2 above.
4) Alumni funding
Severely restricted due to a low alumni base, and IIIT being a new institution.
5) Utilizing the existing resources (such as leasing the land)
Can we do that??
6) Conducting our own exam instead of AIEEE?
I am not sure if that would be such a great option for pure monetary terms, unless there are other benefits.
I am afraid Option2 (Government Funding) seems like the only option which helps us in the long run.
May 5th, 2009 at 8:42 am
Rahul: Spot on mate. The faculty can blame students for non-participation. But students’ view it as a forum set up by faculty to announce their decision. Let me point out to the last few paragraphs of this and after attending many FSIS me and most of the students agree. Rather, let me throw an open challenge GET ME 5 STUDENTS ON THE CAMPUS WHO SAY FSIS IS WORKING. Let us not blame the students/faculty for it (I did not start the blame game!) - but resolve the issues.
Dear Sir,
I was not expecting any answer from anyone. As I have told in my very first mail - “after watching many instances wherein the faculty community announces that these bodies have been a revelation”
I just hope that the faculty will be careful when drawing references/observations about these bodies. More precisely, not write something as loose as this.
Let me not point out the finer points. But I can tell that the analysis is flawed. Being a research Institute we cannot write things like this and publish. I would even go on to say that the Institute was being irresponsible in publishing the aforementioned (uncooked, partially true) article at a forum of international repute.
Regarding the exchanges with Chand - Chand was implicating himself rather giving me jibes directly (wiseman etc.), I never wrote that mail keeping Chand/current parliament in my head (there is nothing that says only the current parliament is in this state and the previous ones were far better). I rather think it is the other way round - Chand was accusing me and being sarcastic. Again I have no issues with Chand - He has put in some effort and it is natural to defend when someone charges the bodies you ran (been associated with) for more than 3 years. Dear mate: There is nothing wrong with you/me. If I am blaming you, it is as good as I am blaming myself (we are all one, we are students)! The point is that time has come for critical introspection of the processes being adopted by us (including me!).
All I was trying to tell the Institute and hence the faculty is - Be careful when state anything about these bodies. They are not doing well by any yardstick of measure. Lastly, I do not expect any (direct) answers from anyone.
May 5th, 2009 at 9:28 am
Rahul -
About mess -
(i) Institute knows the student numbers, and assigns caterers at a particular price for ‘a-days-meals’, on the basis that students eat all three meals in the mess (any one).
(ii) Now if students skip their meals they lose, and caterer loses, and dogs win!
So stating that just because I as a student who is supposed to have breakfast but did not have breakfast - so caterer made money is false. A student would have registered for the breakfast on that day (as only 5 days off is allowed per month), and did not eat. A student should explain this to their parents. Now institute family expects all its students to be responsible and eat all three meals in the campus. Because institute family cares!
Now what can a student do under this circumstances, Rahul and Prasant (one who boldly boasted I did not eat in mess for dinner for two years, but yup! I blew money away on caterer!) - have you joined the mess committee, have you spoken to the cooks, have you ever told the cooks the meals you liked about, have you treated the cooks as part of your family. You should take up responsibility for quality of food, to the level best you can, instead of running away to off campus place and crying about double-loss (pay at mess and pay at off campus place).
The institute was expecting discussion along these lines - instead of ’save me’ from my double loss, kind of argument. As a family - institute strives to provide three hygienic meals per day for students, any issues with respect to quality of food and mess and how students can participate and make the mess better - is the way forward.
Prasant -
Human values is in its fifth year - and there is a socialist who has been collecting statistical evidence on its affect on the students. This work I believe is a pre-cursor to the results of that study. It is presented in a discussion oriented forum to get multi-faceted feedback on the human values program, and also provide others with an opportunity to know more about the program. so, per-se nothing wrong in presenting that work! If there are specific issues in the paper you question - take it up with the authors of the paper.
May 5th, 2009 at 10:00 am
Rahul -
One more thing - if you want to reduce the number of compulsory meals per month a student must take. Make that an agenda item, and discuss it with institute. So, clarity on issues is important. As - sprite ad says - ’seedhi baat’ works!
May 5th, 2009 at 10:12 am
T: I (2,3,4th sems) and Yaso(4,5,6 sems) have been a mess com. We have tried to change various things. Yes, we have spoken to the cooks, we have even checked the raw materials before cooking for a meal starts - but alas, there was not a single change reflected and the quality was as poor as before. For your kind information - Very recently, we were served grains in the mess (not even half-boiled/half-cooked) I took a bowl of this (so-called) rice to Prof. Rawat (incharge of mess) and he calmly tells me that he am not responsible and I must take it up with Bala. I run back to Bala and he says action will be taken. I said him - where is our money, where is my lunch. He says I do not know! The poor lads from first, second were eating this - I have no words to describe it further. I never heard either from Prof. Rawat or Bala or the messcoms regarding this! One more reply to be awaited for.
It was then I realized I would utilize my time for something else. Yaso will be coming up with the details soon. Request you to be patient on this topic.
May 5th, 2009 at 10:16 am
T: You say take it up with the authors and one of those authors never writes back to me! Do I post it from Pranav’s login?
May 5th, 2009 at 10:18 am
@P “I read the document providing the script, but it still does not provides a solution.”
I think either we missed out a point or you missed it.
“I am afraid Option2 (Government Funding) seems like the only option which helps us in the long run.”
The solution that we are pointing out is a change of paradigms in the higher education scenario in the country. How do you ensure that there is greater Govt. (or public)funding? That is the question tackled in the script.
There is a role for the students to play, and it is a non-trivial, active role. Our attempt is towards creation of a student campus which inspires funding agencies - it could be anyone from the public domain - Government is only one of the many sources - to think that here are students whose attempts are to be supported. Apart from this, the move is clear attempt to bring in Public Higher Education in India to question, and ask about the Public Good that it serves. For those that are further interested to read more about this topic of Public Higher Education and Public Good may go through the following link to see the kind of intellectual brainstorming that is going on in the world:
http://special.news.msu.edu/publicgood
May 5th, 2009 at 10:24 am
Prasant -
Then the effort put in and the way it was put is not enough. You need to have deeper understanding of the problem with mess. This is just your first cut attempt at solution. You have chief warden you should talk to him. You should escalate the issue! Or you should boycott that mess and eat in other messes. The caterer will automatically improve or leave.
With new mess portal - for obh messes you can boycott one for other. Or join NBH mess where there is institute mess warden handling quality issues. Or join Yukthar mess!
So, start understanding the issues to fullest extent possible and then address them!
May 5th, 2009 at 10:35 am
@all the faculty here:
There is a fine line between participating in a students life and interfering in it. The powers that be in this college, have absolutely no idea where one starts and the other ends. This is not one of your human values discussions where everything is debatable. An individuals “legal” personal liberties are not debatable, period!! This college has introduced a lot of compulsory activities that cross this line. Compulsory Jeevan Vidya/Human Values, compulsory PT, compulsory Mess, restricting student movement (not allowing people to go out after 12) etc, which are very clear encroachments on personal space.
And before you play the “we feel that they are part of the IIIT family and we are responsible for them” card, let me ask you one question : You are taking care of them today. What after they leave ? What then ? Are we preparing people capable of living in the outside world ? Does that outside world give a damn about who is a lark and who is an owl ? Do you really think that these activities are preparing them for anything ? Have you ever tried to evaluate how these compulsory activities are being received by the student community?
College is a place where most people are out of home for the first time. This is where they try to learn what works best for them. Sometime people tend to go astray and this is where the “participation” part comes in. However if you have so much of compulsory stuff as soon as one enters the college where is the space for the individual to develop ? Are you trying to create clones ? Are you trying to indoctrinate people into a certain lifestyle ? If you are, then it’s a shame. You are crushing individuality for no reason and it’s also not you decision to make. I find your utter lack of respect for others choices(good or bad) to be appalling. You disappoint me.
Your attitude, reminds me of the medieval movement of the Spanish inquisition. The Christian zealots came to the third world presuming to know what’s best for all of mankind. What started out as participation, turned to interference which later turned to persecution. I see the similarities; Do you ??
May 5th, 2009 at 10:39 am
@Prasant I raise my hand to say that FSIS has its merits and it has its impact (in fact, significant), although it may take time to see its effects. FSIS is part of several attempts to create better faculty-student interactions.
The nature of “WORKING” that you talk differs for different people. For me, FSIS works to understand the state of mind of the faculty, and how they perceive the problem and the line of approach for their solution. I may not be in agreement with what is being done. But FSIS gives a background to the kind of thought processes that are at work. I felt I learnt a lot during these sessions. Sometimes, the silences, and pauses of our faculty members convey a lot of meaning. I feel that understanding the differences of opinions and to see the different stands that are taken by our Professors, is a fascinating way of learning, understanding and appreciating things. For me, I am thankful to the authorities that gave me an opportunity to learn certain things, which if I were in a different place, I may not have imagined it to be possible. As a student, anything that enhances my learning works. So, FSIS works for me.
May 5th, 2009 at 10:41 am
Pranav: Show me 4 other students on the campus!
May 5th, 2009 at 10:56 am
Shark -
You joined an institute - knowing about compulsory mess and that it is residential place. You have taken the choice to join this place, the institute did not select you. So abide by the compulsory mess rule. Once you have taken a choice - you have no choice!
Human values is part of broader education - the institute with faculty decided to have it part of curriculum - if there are issues with it take it up with curriculum committee.
Do not give wrong statements - the institute never restricted movement after 12′o clock - all institute said that we need to know if you are away from campus after some time in the evening. You can go out every day if you want. That has not been restricted. Why institute needs to know is something you can take up with institute. Again - lacking ’seedhi baat’ misrepresenting the facts.
Any comment of clones is rubbish - students did learn computer programming - each student is different in the way they program. Same thing with broader education - each student will be different in their thinking and their way of life. So, no clones!
May 5th, 2009 at 11:00 am
T: I am extremely sorry if you are unaware - the movement of the students has been curbed. We were not allowed to go of (come in to) campus from 12:45 to 5:00. This rule was on at least till last month. Get your stats right!
May 5th, 2009 at 11:04 am
Prasant -
not true - check with institute - all it states is that if you go out etc, you need to log the information at hostel security or main gate.
May 5th, 2009 at 11:11 am
@Prasant I don’t find a need to! All that I want to say is this: I have learnt a lot from the FSIS - and if you think as a student - you wanted to learn something too - then I can tell with confidence coming from my own experience that FSIS offers a great platform for learning and understanding things around, not just in the campus, but around the world. Let me make a strong statement: Anyone who is inclined to learn cannot but agree with me.
May 5th, 2009 at 11:17 am
@ pranav You learnt a lot because you are in the elite group of people who get replies for your queries from the policy makers. Unfortunately, general public like me send reactive mails and hence are not fortunate enough to deserve a call. Even now, everyone is pinning down up on me and other students but you are not addressing the issues being raised. Your approaches are methodological.
@T: I cannot state more - I can get a signed form from all the students that such a rule was active - Would you be in a position to believe it then. Tell me what should I do to make you believe that the movement of students was indeed curbed. I am talking about the realities at the IIIT main gate not the rules in the books.
May 5th, 2009 at 11:26 am
Prasant -
1. Is anyone stopping you from going out (yes/no).
2. Is anyone insisting that you write in log book or leave your id-card if you come late at night (yes/no)
If answer to 1. is no and answer to 2 is yes. Then what I am saying is right. Period. Do not need any other test!
About your response to Pranav - what genuine ’seedhi baat’ issue has not been addressed! we can discuss.
May 5th, 2009 at 11:31 am
T: We were not allowed to come in (go out) at any cost. And my answers to your questions -
1 - YES
2 - Both Yes/No - It depends on the mood of the guard and I am serious in saying this.
Seedhi baat- Everything is conveyed in my latest post (Imperialism, Proselytism, The East India Company and IIIT ).
May 5th, 2009 at 11:35 am
Prasant -
You need to take this up with institute if it is really happening (which I still doubt) - that is restriction on going out. I have seen students going out freely at night.
May 5th, 2009 at 11:41 am
Don’t challenge prasant !! A few of the STAR SCREEN awardees (oops ! Did I mean commendation awardees) might want to return their gesture by supporting FSIS ..
@pranav: You might be true. But whats the use when you know what they might be thinking and still not able change their perception :) ..
I wonder if those ‘other efforts’ will yield results. Talking about quality, leave others alone, AAHAR itself is getting deteriorated. You want a proof, ask any student who ate there since its inception. THIS MESS ISSUE has been for the past 5 years (atleast till my duration of stay right from my first year). I remember the entire student community boycotting a DAY’s mess in my 1st year. Change is temporary !! Boycotting is not a solution. AAHAR will run out of food and labour if everyone starts eating there.
Coming to jeevan vidya, with no offense to anyone, I observe that students who did not receive JV are more disciplined in their life than their counterparts. It is only after JV that we found inter-batches fighting (with cricket kits). Batch trip of one of the junior batches got canceled for first time due to regionalism. JV is good but I believe there must be few more changes to be made in the curriculum.
May 5th, 2009 at 12:15 pm
T says, “So, start understanding the issues to fullest extent possible and then address them!”
Honestly, did you put in enough effort to understand the points that we are trying to put forward?
May 5th, 2009 at 12:25 pm
yes.it is a two way process - students should also understand iiit point of view
May 5th, 2009 at 12:44 pm
T: Whats makes you feel we lack the necessary understanding while IIIT has a complete understanding of the students’ view ?
May 5th, 2009 at 12:46 pm
T: I have posted my Seedhi baat here.
May 5th, 2009 at 12:47 pm
@T “So, start understanding the issues to fullest extent possible and then address them!”
I am pasting a transcript of a mail conversation I had with the messcom more than an year ago,
My mail
—————————-
Hi,
I’ve been eating breakfast in this mess for a little over 1 week now and wish to continue because the food is proper and healthy. However, I observed the following things:
1) The mats on which people sit to eat aren’t cleaned (they haven’t been this week), let alone washed. The food particles are stuck to the mat make it very uncomfortable to sit. I think they should be cleaned by dusting atleast after every meal and washed properly every 3 days.
2) The floor is dirty and slimy. People can feel their feet slipping when walking on the floor barefoot. The sticky feeling persists even after leaving the mess until the feet are washed. I believe the floor isn’t being cleaned properly.
3) The mats on which people stand on when they wash the plates are very dirty. It is quite disgusting to stand on them and wash the plates. These should be cleaned regularly because it is a wet area and water accumulates in the ring structure of the mat, thus attracting a lot of dirt.
4) There are innumerable flies in the mess, more than what I’ve
seen in GF, which is considered to be the most unhygienic of all. The reason could be that the kitchen and the dining are combined. Nevertheless, it doesn’t mean that flies are common in kitchens. There is a Pest-O-Flash that sits in one corner of the hall which isn’t able to control the situation.
I didn’t write anything in the complaint register because of its length. I am not aware of any work that is in progress to solve any of the problems I posed above. I hope I have explained the situation clearly. I would really like some comments on this by you.
Thank you,
rahul
—————————-
Piyush Jain’s response
—————————-
Hi,
I agree to what you have said, the reason behind it is lack of workers in the last week. You must have noticed the mail asking for the cooperation from students, it was because of the same reason. Now we have increased 3 workers and a few more are supposed to come. We have made it a rule to wash the mats once in a week (every day few). Also the lady who is supposed to clean the mess, leaves at 4 pm. And because of lack of workers it wasnt getting cleaned properly after dinner.
I assure you we are very much concerned about it. You will see a positive change soon :)
Regards,
Piyush Jain
—————————-
I continued eating in Yuktahaar for two more weeks but found nothing being done along the points I suggested. So I discontinued eating in that “mess” of a place.
Now I know what your response/reaction is going to be,
1)I should have evaluated it for more than two weeks.
2)I asked for was too much in too little time.
3)I should have allocated some of my time in solving the mess issues I raised.
If at all your responses really are along the lines of what I mentioned above, then please keep your precious advices/suggestions to yourself Mr.T for you make no more sense than the Institute. Your responses are not any better from the Institutes, which makes me wonder whether you are one of them.
My last comment to this and future (futile) debates because I have a thesis to finish - I have a life to live - which exists beyond the gates of this Institute.
May 5th, 2009 at 12:57 pm
Rahul-
This is where feeling responsible comes in - is it wrong for institute to ask its students to feel responsible to act - to work for ensuring quality mess environment. You should read the Abdul Kalam’s note, again.
Many a times we think sending an email - throwing money will work. We need to build relationships we need to come up with creative solutions, and we should strive make things happen.
————-
3)I should have allocated some of my time in solving the mess issues I raised.
————–
Why not! allocate some time and work on it. It is after all student run mess.
May 5th, 2009 at 1:47 pm
@T
Your reply has very well emphasized my point, that you have scant respect for other’s choices. Your answer sounds something like “Now that you have decided to join IIIT, do what we tell you to do. You have no choice”. Is that healthy for the institute ?
I did not express a problem with human desires. I just said that unlike some stuff which is up for debate, peoples right to personal freedoms are not. Read the constitution of India. Thats where I got this “weird” idea from!!
As far as the going out thing is concerned, I can point you to official communications from the SLC chair, that explicitly prohibits students from leaving the campus or coming in between 12:30 and 6 AM. This rule was in place for almost a year. I can drop a copy of these communications in you mail box if you so desire.
And lastly your analogy between students doing a compulsory C programming course and having compulsory non-academic activities is strange. I agree with your assertion that people take different learnings out of the same academic course. What different learnings a person can take from compulsory PT or Mess or Movement restrictions is a big mystery to me.
Also I can’t believe you called these things “broader education”. These measures are aimed at introducing discipline to curb certain life-styles. Maybe thats good. But it’s not your call to make. And that’s the whole point I am trying to make!!! It can’t get more “Seedhi baat” then this!!
PS. I would like to debate. Not argue. Lets keep that spirit. I don’t think we need to resort to using terms like “rubbish” to describe other’s opinions or accuse them of mis-information without complete knowledge ourselves. Happy commenting :)
May 5th, 2009 at 2:43 pm
Since so many issues are coming out here, let me ask one more question to the authorities concerned. Why do even MS and PhD. students, most of whom are well above the age of 23-24, have to pay for MESS in advance. Can’t the institute’s higher authorities have faith on their research students. Most of the research students have come after leaving their jobs. They have already seen the outside world and they know which food is good for them. Why are they forced to eat only in a MESS where you cannot change your mess . Whatever the caterer has cooked, you have to eat it and if you choose to eat somewhere else, your money will be cut.
May 5th, 2009 at 6:36 pm
Swan
This last time we should respond to it - MS students are free to eat outside - but if they eat in IIIT mess they should pay guest rates. If you want to eat at IIIT student rates you need to pay mess advance. Rahul - will give you details.
May 5th, 2009 at 11:55 pm
@T
This is the last time I want to respond to the mess issue.
Do you want me or Rahul or Prasant to get on top of the half constructed new main building and shout it out loud that we were/still are ready to pay guest rates and eat in the mess ?? Where on earth did you get this idea from? We have no problems paying “guest rates”. For some strange reason, beyond my understanding, Dr.Sangal is making mess registration compulsory for even PG students. This has nothing to do with the mess rates at all. I was personally present in these all these discussions and assure you are well wide of the mark in your information. If you are not inclined to believe me, please be my guest and talk to Dr.Sangal/Shatrunjay Rawat/Dr.Abhijit Mitra to clarify this. This is the second time in as many months that I am personally clarifying this fact for you on this forum. I wonder why you still don’t get the facts right.
May 6th, 2009 at 7:08 am
Shark:
In that case I suggest you all go and talk to Director once more for the exact reason (if it is not what I have been saying). Note that you should have enough competency to understand the reason, otherwise you will not be satisfied with the reasons given.
May 6th, 2009 at 7:20 am
Shark:
Broader education is required because our middle and high schools, especially 11 & 12 are NOT doing it. Period. If the institute does not do it now, then the institute is irresponsible.
The restriction was during time of security alert. If any student really wants to go they can inform the institute and go (by writing in log records). As a member of institute family we need to know where our members are especially in night. That is part of institute’s responsibility.
You not having a choice is spot on! You selected the institute, the institute did not. Check the analogy wrt to NDA. Be responsible and all institute is doing is provide guidance.
If there are other institutions which do not do this, it is their prerogative. You do not join ‘XYZ religion school’ and say I will not attend compulsory bhajan’s morning and evening.
Institute takes feedback from students and aims to work out long term solutions. It will take time. What ever issues you have raised will help batches down the line.
May 6th, 2009 at 9:56 am
T: “If the institute does not do it now, then the institute is irresponsible.” - This is what I precisely ask in my latest post - Who entrusted IIIT with this burden; especially when the quality of the post (under) education is below par. Are there more fundamental issues to look at as an engineering institute.
Regarding arguments involving IIIT as a family - I think institute has been putting forth their point to students — but clearly more is required and is the need of the hour.
Let me also add, the Institute also needs to put more efforts for the students to see/realize that the tall talk Institute has been doing is being received by the students. Again, I feel that day-to-day efforts being put are not catering your needs. Time has come for us to be proactive and make students realize why is IIIT’s stand justified.
May 6th, 2009 at 10:06 am
Prasant:
They both go in hand-in-hand - you cannot isolate one from other. Once the institute knows what issues students face, and students understand what aspects that institute cares for, then things will work.
We have always been having quality academic program. We aim to make it better each day. A lot of time and effort is devoted to this. Any improvement there is a slow process. Along with that there is the human values process to ensure that IIIT family as whole understands and works at higher competency levels.
Do not imply that IIIT is doing one in-lieu of the other. It is doing both, as it is required to do both and can do both. I do not see academic program suffering due to human values emphasis.
May 6th, 2009 at 12:34 pm
T: My point is when we are struggling to give a good course on a core subject in computer sciences with well-defined curriculum, syllabus and expertize; Do you think we should bother to touch down upon a dangerous/sensitive topic like human values whose reach and scope are highly debatable. More specifically - I come from the school of thought which says - Human values cannot be taught and to make anyone understand we need a preceptor (guru) not a professor/teacher and I believe people here do not have sufficient exposure/conviction themselves to talk about human values to influence it upon others. I am not telling people who instruct do not understand Human values; but you should understand that knowing is different from preaching/teaching something.
May 6th, 2009 at 1:46 pm
It is nice to see opinions and views related to several issues surfacing here. As SLC chair, I have been entrusted with the task of providing an interface between the larger student community and the administration, especially with regard to issues in the extra-curricular space. Being therefore privy to the facts related to several of these issues, I can see where all misunderstandings, and miscommunications, have been interfering with the prevalence of harmony within the campus and why a sense of alienation persists in many students. Though I, in conjunction with the parliament, have been attempting to make things better, and though I feel that we have made some headway in these matters, I feel responsible for this state of affairs. This long posting may please be taken as an attempt towards rectification.
Firstly, regarding compulsory mess for MS students, what Shark (Comment #43) says is true. However, there is a background to it. This issue was raised with me by Rahul and Rishab several months back, and I had promised them to arrange a thorough review of the situation. I had also suggested a time frame and also wanted to involve more students, not just MS, in the discussion. Unfortunately that could not happen because, and Rishab should be able to bear me out on this, the issue was preempted in a discussion scheduled for other things between the Director and the MS students. Once the steam is out, things tend to get sidelined because of other ‘urgent’ matters (Felicity, R&D, Exams etc). I assure all of you that things are not ‘closed’ and is always open to review. The only rider is that participants in the review process should try to comprehend the larger concerns, since they affect not just the MS students, and then come up with alternative executable policies. I hope this will be taken up by the next, parliament as a matter of priority. (Prasant says the parliament is dead and buried, but I think there are enough number of optimists who are looking forward to Prasant to join their ranks to make it ‘alive and kicking’)
The second is regarding security (and entry-exit) issues. Though I see charges by Prasant and some others that the campus life has been inactive, let me assure you that several of its members, Rishab Gadroo being one of them, have raised it time and again with me. It was in last December when I communicated to campus life that the institute is planning to have a detailed discussion on the larger issues with the students. Unfortunately such an FSIS meeting could not take place till now and, as I can see from the blog postings, there seems to be a lot of misunderstandings prevaling. The current scenario is as follows: The institute has constituted a ’security’ committee with me as a member and Dr. Pradeep as chair. The institute has also accepted my suggestion that the committee should have two student members whose inputs will be taken into consideration while formulating any ’student related’ rules. I was discussing these with Rishab Mukherji a few days back. This committee would soon be sitting. May be, in the interim period pending the formation of the next parliament, the current students can suggest two names of students who can be a part of this.
There are of course several other issues, which need to be resolved, and they can not all be discussed in one place. They need to be taken up, albeit parallelly, separately and one at a time. I have the following suggestions to efficiently address issues:
1. Students have two mail servers - one official (students) and one private (life). Do all of us feel that we also have a ’student life’ mailing list which can work in the interface of the students and the administration? Intersted students and involved faculty can subscribe to this list. I do not mean this to be a ‘grievance cell’ substitute. It can be a place to discuss issues where students and faculty can interact informally. This mailing list can handle several mails which otherwise go to ‘life’ and remain only within students. Not only would such a server make ‘life’ free for important ’student only’ issues, it would also help students and involved faculty to keep in touch.
2. Through a mailing list as stated above, or through other means, we firmly establish a tradition of discussion where participants follow certain mutually agreed upon conventions:
a. We implicitly trust each other’s intentions. This means that views are not expressed with overt or covert implication of the type: “I know it is useless talking to you” or “I know you do not want to understand my point of view” etc
b. We try to understand that none of us are ‘holier than the other’. This comes out in the form,”I am understanding your, and others, point of view; but you are (selfishly) pursuing only your personal agenda”. That amounts to passing a judgement and none of us are comfortable with others passing a ‘judgement’ on us, especially on our intentions.
c. As a corollary to the above two points the discussion should imply, by default, that each of us understand that true justice is something which everybody finds agreeable and that it does not cater to partisan vested interests.
d. As far as possible, we refrain from philosophising on why something has happened and from using it to announce a verdict on how things can not be better. If something wrong has happened, let us review it and think about what is to be done so that such a situation does not arise in the future.
Can the student’s parliament take an initiative in this matter? It can also be an independant initiative from interested students to begin with and then the coordinator can be inducted into the parliament.
ps. I just now saw Prasant’s comment #48 on the appropriateness of making human values a curricular course. Can we take this issue up under a separate blog topic? That would ensure more focussed discussions and perhaps lead to an informed face to face public discussion. The reason is that we need to thoroughly examine larger issues such as ‘What is true education’ in order to critically examine the objectives of the Human Values course and also evaluate how far it is successful in achieving these objectives. Once again the ‘intentions’ and ‘competences’ are different things and the distinction needs to be maintained in any fruitful discussion.
May 6th, 2009 at 2:20 pm
Prasant -
I do not think institute teaches human values - it is an exposure to a set of questions that all of us should ask, and try to seek answers. It is a way of arranging understanding to make it easier for people to live a life, now at institute, and beyond. Just like there are many courses compulsory in institute, so is this. The debate is not whether Computer Programming is more required than human value or other wise. The fact is that a student should take both seriously and sincerely.
How many of the students spent time to understand why they are at this institute for what purpose, is the institute a good match for them to reach that purpose. What do they want to be doing 5 years, 10 years .. down the line.
In this course - most of the work (>90%) has to be done by the students in understanding themselves, their desires, where those desires come from, how they should work towards fulfilling those desires. These are good - questions, and the sooner the students are exposed to them, they will have more time at institute to know and understand themselves, rather than (may)falter after they leave the institute.
Asking students to think along these lines and ‘learn to live a life’ is more important than learning skills of programming. At IIIT, they do both. The institute takes the right choice, rather than easier choice. It strives to work for these right choices and makes adjustments, if any, when required.
May 6th, 2009 at 4:20 pm
Let me give the RSS feeds for comments of this blog :
http://prasantgopal.com/blog/?feed=comments-rss2
May 6th, 2009 at 5:19 pm
T:
“In this course - most of the work (>90%) has to be done by the students in understanding themselves, their desires, where those desires come from, how they should work towards fulfilling those desires. These are good - questions, and the sooner the students are exposed to them, they will have more time at institute to know and understand themselves, rather than (may)falter after they leave the institute.”
I should say, this is wonderful initiative. BUT, understanding oneself is not a time-bound task just like the MS/R in IIIT-H. Even after years of studying themselves, many people are still clueless in explaining who they are. Moreover, to attempt even that he/she needs a calm mind devoid of any responsibilities.
Most of the students opt for this high demand IT jobs because they need the money to look after their parents. Many of us, most of the times wont have a choice but to earn “money”. That WILL BE our primary goal. So in these states of mind, most of us are not bothered about understanding ourselves. Understand who I am doesn’t make my parents come out of their miseries. Thats why we need skills that helps us in “earning”. Once we are comfortable with our lives, trust me, we all will come to each and every shivir as we will have all the time we need to “understand” ourselves.
@administration:
Why dont you take the ‘risk’ and do an ‘experiment’ as a part of the evolution process of IIIT-H? Mention the following points in bold and red letters.
1) The onus of getting a job is entirely on the student and IIIT-H is not responsible if a students is not placed after completing his/her graduation.
2) We offer 4 under graduate programs namely
a) Computer Science and Engineering (4 years)
b) Dual Degree in Computer Science and Engineering(A minimum of five years)
c) Electronics and Communication Engineering (4 years)
d) Dual Degree in Electronics and Communication Engineering (A minimum of five years)
3) Student is well trained in Human Values and Jeevan Vidya Concepts to improve the understanding of himself/herself.
(of course, the third point needs to be improvised as I am not sure what exactly JV or human values does to a person)
As always please dont make any observations because they are highly dangerous for a stubborn and optimistic minds living in and around Gachibowli.
May 6th, 2009 at 8:29 pm
Rohith -
disagree - you start understanding your selves when you have certain desires and are able to make choices in your life. All IIIT is doing is enriching this process.
Now if a student taking this course has no desire to learn it may not help him/her in near future. But mind you, whenever he/she is disharmony and needs to evaluate their life an take decisions, they will refer to it.
Imparting life skills is part of education. Period.
Human values does not say do not earn, do not make money, you pursue ‘money’ as much as you want, but now you will have a perspective when doing it.
In fact Human Values if taken sincerely will help you attain a state of calmness to pursue your other important desires with vigor.
As you are working - this single page article might help you - taken from Prof. Kamal’s web page.
http://www.iiit.ac.in/~kamal/kamal.pdf
—
Yes, the institute will state about jobs when time comes, in future.
About courses, etc. the institute will mostly do so with the listing now.
–
May 6th, 2009 at 9:15 pm
T: Can you point us to place where it is explicitly written and sent to prospective students that Dual Degree is a programme bound by the quality but not by time.
Prof. Mitra: As you say, lets have a separate post on that topic.
May 6th, 2009 at 9:37 pm
Prasant
The new admissions web site will say something different. Kindly wait for it. The site is coming up.
May 6th, 2009 at 10:55 pm
Hey prospective MS students, to understand IIIT’s perspective I found a place in our Hyderabad itself (Saves train charges to Mussoorie).
http://wikimapia.org/#lat=17.450315&lon=78.435756&z=18&l=0&m=a&v=2
May 6th, 2009 at 11:27 pm
@ T
what about the people who have already joined the institute thinking the course is for 5 years only ??
May 6th, 2009 at 11:46 pm
@T :
same question as researcher!!
In FAQ2 of iiit site it is mentioned that taking a dual degree program gives one extra degree in one year.
To be precise here is the point :
“”
**5-year dual degree programme** prepares you for **research** and **high-end paying jobs** that are likely to come up in large numbers as more R&D companies start their operations. It also prepares you for higher studies, if you wish to pursue PhD in India or abroad.
The programme takes **one extra year**, but **then you get two degrees BTech and Masters**. Normally, MTech requires two years beyond BTech. The final year is expected to be fully supported, if your academic performance been satisfactory. You are also likely to get financial support in the earlier years when you do projects.
“”
http://www.iiit.ac.in/academics/admissions/ugadmissions/faq.php#1
Now why don’t you honor your commitments?? Just because this is a deemed university and you are not answerable to any one “U do Man Maani” ?? Because there is no authority to whom students can approach for justice??
Isn’t this the “seedhi baat” ??
Please answer this “seedhi baat” in a very “seedha manner” .
Both of us know that you can give a so called “logical argument” for everything. But at the same time everyone here knows the truth!!
May 7th, 2009 at 6:07 am
dd student -
This is last years statement - I spoke to Acad office - once they get the new curriculum, they will change it.
researcher-
check Academic Aura (revisited) as to what you all ought to do.
May 7th, 2009 at 8:25 am
@ T
I am not asking about changing the comment. I am saying that the student who joined insti till last year were made to believe that this is a 5 year program.
At least they should be given their degree in 5 years.
Again refereeing to prashant’s point :
“1. IIIT is a family - Only to put the burden on students. ”
Professors felt that they need to take the great burden of providing this country researchers and they start this Dual Degree. How they lure students to join in. By points mentioned in FAQ :
**5-year dual degree programme**
**high-end paying jobs**
**one extra year**, but **then you get two degrees BTech and Masters**
Then suddenly one day they wake and find that DD can’t be completed in 5 years. They decide to mention this point in brochure. Good. I commend this honesty of institute.
But what I am saying is The dual degree students who are already here, give them their degree in 5 years.
This whole mistake of not being able to calculate time of DD was on part of institute. But you are forcing to students to take its burden.
That’s where I feel the notion of IIIT as a family falls apart. Because all relations are based on trust. When this trust breaks whole feeling of “My IIIT” and “contributing towards it” vanishes.
On a personnel note I am somewhat inclined to research and i don’t have any issues with working a semester or two extra.
But what i want to convey is this should be voluntary. Students who are already in should be given an option to leave after 5 years with MS.
Apart from it I am sincerely thank full to you , Mitra sir and Prashant. You replying to comments makes us feel that at least there is someone who listens to students. This itself takes care of lots frustration. :)
May 7th, 2009 at 8:51 am
Current dual-degree students should talk to their advisers and Dean R&D about their future.
May 7th, 2009 at 10:21 am
Dear all:
The following mail was sent to Dead RnD: http://prasantgopal.com/DualDegree.txt
May 7th, 2009 at 10:35 am
T: Do you consider the mail sent to Dead RnD and faculty a reaction or a response? Can we expect a reply to the questions posed?
May 7th, 2009 at 11:13 am
Prasant -
Obviously a response - wait for the response from the concerned person. If not go and talk to him/her.
May 7th, 2009 at 11:49 am
T: Thanks for comments on my writing.